Update: MetaCatholic has jumped in: πίστις Χριστοῦ: 98 posts left to find a good argument. HT to JK Gayle for a post by Michael Bird: Francis Watson on Pistis Christou. Loren Rossen has hurtled himself into the abyss: The Meaning of Pistis Christou.
Two bloggers who I recently named as “The Most Dangerous Bloggers of 2008” have been talking about “faith”
NT Wrong kicked it off with a peek into his supposed book, 100 Reasons πίστις Χριστοῦ is an Objective Genitive. And JK Gayle another pseudonymous blogger has a reaction here: pedantic post on πίστεως.
I’m waiting to hear from two more blogs on this topic:
Better Bibles Blog and ΕΝ ΕΦΕΣΩ
The rendering of the word normally rendered as “faith” is problematic for translators. Is it “belief” as in “a mental assertion of the truth” or “faith” as in “unfounded yet strongly held trust”?
NT Wrong’s first two posts are here:
- Reason No. 1: Semantic Fallacies – 100 Reasons πίστις Χριστοῦ is an Objective Genitive
- Reason No. 2: (Not) Arguing From The Stats – 100 Reasons πίστις Χριστοῦ is an Objective Genitive
I haven’t tracked down any technical writings of mine on the phrase in Wrong’s study but I do have But does Bigfoot believe in you? and In which Lingamish is saved through childbearing which look at slippery key theological terms in the New Testament. Also, The limits of grace looks at a the slipperiest key term of them all which I tackled again recently in Twelve small prayers for grace.
I would love it if NT Wrong’s series sets off a blogstorm on the New Testament concept of faith. Any takers?
Oh shoot. I was trying to stay out of it. I have some thoughts – none of them are formulated though. I’ll see what I can do…
The very best thing about your post here is that link back to your post there (In which Lingamish is saved through childbearing), where one Janet Porter confesses the most believable thing: “I am sure your readers can appreciate what an interesting young man you are when attempting to fathom the mysteries and depths of your humor and intellect. Imagine the challenge of being your mother!” You saved her from much, she says, including “a life of tranquility…from growing old, boring and bored most definitely.” What great preparation for where she is now, where we all want to be: the place prepared so personally for you and me.
“Ah, but a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, Or what’s a heaven for?” – Robert Browning
[...] a comment » David Ker has pulled me into the debate and subjective/objective genitives. NT Wrong has written a few posts [...]
I don’t know if my suggestions do anything to start off a big storm of debate, but its something.
I’m currently looking at Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:25; Rom 3:3
Maybe not a storm, but I weighed in with The Meaning of Pistis Christou.
The Hebrew and Greek Reader has The Jesus Faith – Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 (and a synopsis of Wrong’s posts to date).
The clouds are gathering…
Just do it!
Nike?
From John Locke’s translation / commentary:
Romans III.1-31. . . 26 for the manifesting of his righteousness at this time that he might be just in keeping his promise and be the justifyer of every one, not who is of the Jewish nation or extraction but, of the faith* in Jesus Christ.
*τὸν ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ, if this phrase had been translated, him that is of the faith of Jesus, as it is chap. iv. 16, and Gal. iii.7, rather than him which believeth in Jesus, it would better have expressed the apostle’s meaning here, which was to distinguish οἱ ἐκ πίστεως Those who are of faith from οἱ ἐκ περιτομῆς or οἱ ἐκ νόμου Those who are of the circumcision; or Those who are of the law speakeing of them as of two sorts or races of men of two different extractions. To understand this place fully let any one read Ch: IV.12-16. Gal III.7-10 where he will find the apostles sense more at large.
Nike? See 1 John 5:4 in the Greek. But I guess that this Nike is a subjective genitive: “your faith”.
You Greek geeks crack me up.
John Hobbins jumps in with <a href=”http://ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2008/12/a-critique-of-natural-english-as-a-goal-of-translation-.html”both feet (sort of).
Metacatholic takes another step in the right direction.
uhhh, I meant to say “”.
make that ?
never mind!
A real dangerous blogger shows up saying utterly safe stuff.
[...] under my hat for the time being. Instead I’ve just been dancing around the periphery of the topic here, here and here.How do you think this phrase should be translated? This entry was written by [...]