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	<title>Comments on: Christian Zen</title>
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	<description>Won&#039;t you be my neighbor?</description>
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		<title>By: codepoke</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10194</link>
		<dc:creator>codepoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 13:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hello Nita (and David, too.) You&#039;ve made honest and heart-tugging points. I&#039;m really sorry about the way Christianity has seemed to fall short when you needed it most. Christ hasn&#039;t, I&#039;m sure, but Christianity sure can raise questions about Him.

Let me offer an example of deeply Christian meditation. The concept of Christian meditation is precisely NOT to empty your mind, but to fill it with realities of which you&#039;ve never dreamt. Some Christians have never tried to imagine what it means when God says every day in your life is like a thousand years to Him, and that His thoughts toward you in that day are more numerous than the sand on the sea shore, and that He knows His intentions toward you - that they are good. 

There&#039;s a richness and health to filling your mind with those thoughts. Especially when your life seems to prove them all lies. 

The linked post (not one of mine) gives a wonderful example of Christian meditation. I hope it blesses you. 
http://christthetruth.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/recipe-for-a-15-minute-quiet-time/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Nita (and David, too.) You&#8217;ve made honest and heart-tugging points. I&#8217;m really sorry about the way Christianity has seemed to fall short when you needed it most. Christ hasn&#8217;t, I&#8217;m sure, but Christianity sure can raise questions about Him.</p>
<p>Let me offer an example of deeply Christian meditation. The concept of Christian meditation is precisely NOT to empty your mind, but to fill it with realities of which you&#8217;ve never dreamt. Some Christians have never tried to imagine what it means when God says every day in your life is like a thousand years to Him, and that His thoughts toward you in that day are more numerous than the sand on the sea shore, and that He knows His intentions toward you &#8211; that they are good. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a richness and health to filling your mind with those thoughts. Especially when your life seems to prove them all lies. </p>
<p>The linked post (not one of mine) gives a wonderful example of Christian meditation. I hope it blesses you.<br />
<a href="http://christthetruth.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/recipe-for-a-15-minute-quiet-time/" rel="nofollow">http://christthetruth.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/recipe-for-a-15-minute-quiet-time/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nita</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10176</link>
		<dc:creator>Nita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 05:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I spent most of my life blindly following Christianity because many generations of my family had followed this tradition.  Having a personal experience of salvation made my devotion more than traditional.  But after losing my mother to cancer and experiencing severe loss, adversity, and high stress in my personal life, I started looking for something to help me physically and mentally. The faith I had grown up with suddenly wasn&#039;t enough.  Maybe my foundation was wrong to begin with or maybe God led me to broaden my understanding of faith by letting me see the faith of those I had once condemned as &quot;the heathen.&quot; I had some serious health issues.  I tried the traditional Christian methods of getting healed.  But most of the Christians I knew put very little importance on physical and mental health. The more I read and searched, the more I found the word &quot;meditation&quot; popping up as a healthful activity.  I even had a medical doctor recommend it to me to relieve anxiety and depression.  I had a friend who had been practicing Zen for quite some time.  I started doing yoga and meditating, not as an act of worship, but as a means to improve my health.  I don&#039;t offer incense or bow before statues, but if that would give me peace of mind, I probably would. This from a Christian who firmly believes the commandment, &quot;Thou shalt have no other gods before me.&quot; Call it desperation.  It&#039;s like people who do not believe in divorce, but their spouse beats them of cheats on them.  Sometimes our theology is suddenly changed by circumstances. The lure of Zen is not to become an idolater, it is the hope of having physical and mental well-being, something most Christian denominations do not offer or even emphasize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent most of my life blindly following Christianity because many generations of my family had followed this tradition.  Having a personal experience of salvation made my devotion more than traditional.  But after losing my mother to cancer and experiencing severe loss, adversity, and high stress in my personal life, I started looking for something to help me physically and mentally. The faith I had grown up with suddenly wasn&#8217;t enough.  Maybe my foundation was wrong to begin with or maybe God led me to broaden my understanding of faith by letting me see the faith of those I had once condemned as &#8220;the heathen.&#8221; I had some serious health issues.  I tried the traditional Christian methods of getting healed.  But most of the Christians I knew put very little importance on physical and mental health. The more I read and searched, the more I found the word &#8220;meditation&#8221; popping up as a healthful activity.  I even had a medical doctor recommend it to me to relieve anxiety and depression.  I had a friend who had been practicing Zen for quite some time.  I started doing yoga and meditating, not as an act of worship, but as a means to improve my health.  I don&#8217;t offer incense or bow before statues, but if that would give me peace of mind, I probably would. This from a Christian who firmly believes the commandment, &#8220;Thou shalt have no other gods before me.&#8221; Call it desperation.  It&#8217;s like people who do not believe in divorce, but their spouse beats them of cheats on them.  Sometimes our theology is suddenly changed by circumstances. The lure of Zen is not to become an idolater, it is the hope of having physical and mental well-being, something most Christian denominations do not offer or even emphasize.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Stegen</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10108</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Stegen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wow - great discussion, deep insights, I&#039;ve learned a lot - thanks!

I tend to side with anonymous and codepoke - there&#039;s enough in Christian tradition, and Zen could start us on the slippery slope into idolatry. 

I&#039;m grateful to never have been tempted to try Zen; instead I was blessed by the spiritual exercises as developed by St.Ignatius - focusing on the Word who is the Son - and silence definitely does play a role in that.
Another psalm came to mind, Ps.19:1-3 where God&#039;s glory is declared by creation without sound. And a silence which gives glory to God must also be part of the chief end of humankind. My 2p ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow &#8211; great discussion, deep insights, I&#8217;ve learned a lot &#8211; thanks!</p>
<p>I tend to side with anonymous and codepoke &#8211; there&#8217;s enough in Christian tradition, and Zen could start us on the slippery slope into idolatry. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m grateful to never have been tempted to try Zen; instead I was blessed by the spiritual exercises as developed by St.Ignatius &#8211; focusing on the Word who is the Son &#8211; and silence definitely does play a role in that.<br />
Another psalm came to mind, Ps.19:1-3 where God&#8217;s glory is declared by creation without sound. And a silence which gives glory to God must also be part of the chief end of humankind. My 2p &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob MacDonald</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10106</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob MacDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dana&#039;s comment is helpful to me. Years ago, Psalm 46 was one of my first exercises in translation - you can see the very green diagram &lt;a href=&quot;http://bmd.gx.ca/psalms/168.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. There is a center to the poem - God is in the midst of her. Equally - Be still - is in the center of the final stanza.

There are however &#039;shades of meaning&#039; in every word. Give up - sounds like a wrestling term - cry uncle and I will let you go. The Hebrew I see in my BDB does not give &#039;uncle&#039; or &#039;give up&#039; as a direct gloss - but relax, sink: e.g. sink down - as hay in fire! (Isaiah 5:24). It also can imply abating of temper (Judges 8:3). BDB glosses Psalm 46 as &#039;do nothing&#039; or let go.  What I get from this psalm is that God will be lifted up - and I cannot help but think of how our Lord is lifted up for us as an offering by his own hands that we might be in him as he is in the midst of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana&#8217;s comment is helpful to me. Years ago, Psalm 46 was one of my first exercises in translation &#8211; you can see the very green diagram <a href="http://bmd.gx.ca/psalms/168.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. There is a center to the poem &#8211; God is in the midst of her. Equally &#8211; Be still &#8211; is in the center of the final stanza.</p>
<p>There are however &#8217;shades of meaning&#8217; in every word. Give up &#8211; sounds like a wrestling term &#8211; cry uncle and I will let you go. The Hebrew I see in my BDB does not give &#8216;uncle&#8217; or &#8216;give up&#8217; as a direct gloss &#8211; but relax, sink: e.g. sink down &#8211; as hay in fire! (Isaiah 5:24). It also can imply abating of temper (Judges 8:3). BDB glosses Psalm 46 as &#8216;do nothing&#8217; or let go.  What I get from this psalm is that God will be lifted up &#8211; and I cannot help but think of how our Lord is lifted up for us as an offering by his own hands that we might be in him as he is in the midst of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10105</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10105</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had a delightful time today, humming the newly reworded song, &quot;Give Up, and Know That I am God&quot; :-)

And then, in church I wondered (as my mind wandered) if it would be accurate to translate it somewhere along the lines of &quot;Stop striving, and recognize that I am God.&quot; 

As for the Zen topic, firstly I think that there is a very real longing for quiet in the midst of our hubbub. And, as has been mentioned, the church often contributes to the hubbub, rather than making space for quiet.

Secondly, I believe that the best quiet is not the quiet where I&#039;m silenced, centered, at one with myself, but the quiet that comes from being in community.  I don&#039;t mean just quietness in the middle of a group service, but rather peace of being quieted, while being &quot;with&quot; (With is a preposition I use with an active meaning, almost in a verb sense, without needing an object after it). 

No matter how alone and quiet I am, I know that I am anchored in community and that matters somehow to helping me be and find quiet. But also to be quieted, actually with someone, is really important. No words, no effort, no practice of discipline, just being with. To me that is something incredibly more valuable than being able to master quieting myself through a particular practice or method.

And finally, I like what Bob said over on his related post: &quot;Technique is important and useful but ultimately insufficient.&quot;  and &quot;Technique can provide a little discipline and can also be holy but it does not do the job of dealing with ___&quot; [Bob said anger, but I read it as a fill-in-the blank]. 

That&#039;s a helpful paradigm for me in thinking about technique, whether it be in connection with meditation or prayer or childbirth.

I&#039;ve got mixed feelings about the Zen topic itself, but I&#039;ve found all the little sideline conversations to be fascinating and thought-provoking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had a delightful time today, humming the newly reworded song, &#8220;Give Up, and Know That I am God&#8221; <img src='http://lingamish.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And then, in church I wondered (as my mind wandered) if it would be accurate to translate it somewhere along the lines of &#8220;Stop striving, and recognize that I am God.&#8221; </p>
<p>As for the Zen topic, firstly I think that there is a very real longing for quiet in the midst of our hubbub. And, as has been mentioned, the church often contributes to the hubbub, rather than making space for quiet.</p>
<p>Secondly, I believe that the best quiet is not the quiet where I&#8217;m silenced, centered, at one with myself, but the quiet that comes from being in community.  I don&#8217;t mean just quietness in the middle of a group service, but rather peace of being quieted, while being &#8220;with&#8221; (With is a preposition I use with an active meaning, almost in a verb sense, without needing an object after it). </p>
<p>No matter how alone and quiet I am, I know that I am anchored in community and that matters somehow to helping me be and find quiet. But also to be quieted, actually with someone, is really important. No words, no effort, no practice of discipline, just being with. To me that is something incredibly more valuable than being able to master quieting myself through a particular practice or method.</p>
<p>And finally, I like what Bob said over on his related post: &#8220;Technique is important and useful but ultimately insufficient.&#8221;  and &#8220;Technique can provide a little discipline and can also be holy but it does not do the job of dealing with ___&#8221; [Bob said anger, but I read it as a fill-in-the blank]. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a helpful paradigm for me in thinking about technique, whether it be in connection with meditation or prayer or childbirth.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got mixed feelings about the Zen topic itself, but I&#8217;ve found all the little sideline conversations to be fascinating and thought-provoking.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10104</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10104</guid>
		<description>I led a devotion at our evening fellowship on Psalm 46. Thanks guys for inspiration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I led a devotion at our evening fellowship on Psalm 46. Thanks guys for inspiration.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10102</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10102</guid>
		<description>Allow me to push a little more. I think the verb in Ps. 46:10 means less than the sum of the AV parts. It&#039;s a pretty generic word. But I think you&#039;re right on here: &quot;This passage is a reference to our position before His strength, not to knowing Him.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow me to push a little more. I think the verb in Ps. 46:10 means less than the sum of the AV parts. It&#8217;s a pretty generic word. But I think you&#8217;re right on here: &#8220;This passage is a reference to our position before His strength, not to knowing Him.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: codepoke</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10101</link>
		<dc:creator>codepoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10101</guid>
		<description>Hey Steve. You made me learn something today. :-)

I&#039;ve long looked at the English of Ps 46:10, and of the preceeding verses. When I rejected contemplation, I learned that the context says God is an active - terrifyingly active - refuge, and we should sit quietly and wait on His salvation. I saw that this passage is not about intimate communion with God, but about quiet trust in His works. 

Today I looked at the Hebrew, though. Wow. It appears &quot;be still&quot; is a soft translation of the Hebrew, which really means:
1) to sink, relax, sink down, let drop, be disheartened

Look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7503&amp;t=KJV&amp;page=2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;other uses&lt;/a&gt; of this word, and you see a very different picture. (AV — feeble 6, fail 4, weaken 4, go 4, alone 4, idle 3, stay 3, slack 3, faint 2, forsake 2, abated 1, cease 1, misc 9.) We are to be feeble and know that He is God. This passage is a reference to our position before His strength, not to knowing Him. 

Some contemplate as unto the Lord, and some don&#039;t contemplate as unto the Lord. Whether we contemplate, therefore, or don&#039;t contemplate we are the Lord&#039;s. (Rom 14) Thank you for pushing back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Steve. You made me learn something today. <img src='http://lingamish.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long looked at the English of Ps 46:10, and of the preceeding verses. When I rejected contemplation, I learned that the context says God is an active &#8211; terrifyingly active &#8211; refuge, and we should sit quietly and wait on His salvation. I saw that this passage is not about intimate communion with God, but about quiet trust in His works. </p>
<p>Today I looked at the Hebrew, though. Wow. It appears &#8220;be still&#8221; is a soft translation of the Hebrew, which really means:<br />
1) to sink, relax, sink down, let drop, be disheartened</p>
<p>Look at <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7503&amp;t=KJV&amp;page=2" rel="nofollow">other uses</a> of this word, and you see a very different picture. (AV — feeble 6, fail 4, weaken 4, go 4, alone 4, idle 3, stay 3, slack 3, faint 2, forsake 2, abated 1, cease 1, misc 9.) We are to be feeble and know that He is God. This passage is a reference to our position before His strength, not to knowing Him. </p>
<p>Some contemplate as unto the Lord, and some don&#8217;t contemplate as unto the Lord. Whether we contemplate, therefore, or don&#8217;t contemplate we are the Lord&#8217;s. (Rom 14) Thank you for pushing back.</p>
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		<title>By: Melanie Pierce</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10097</link>
		<dc:creator>Melanie Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10097</guid>
		<description>Also, regarding centering prayer, I guess I&#039;m not really familiar with that terminology, but I do know that Jesus called us to &quot;Come away with me to a quiet place and pray.&quot;  I guess the difference may be in whether our focus is on centering ourselves and seeking peace under our own power, or simply removing distractions in order to allow the Holy Spirit to draw us into Him.  Is it self-driven, or seeking Jesus&#039; face?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, regarding centering prayer, I guess I&#8217;m not really familiar with that terminology, but I do know that Jesus called us to &#8220;Come away with me to a quiet place and pray.&#8221;  I guess the difference may be in whether our focus is on centering ourselves and seeking peace under our own power, or simply removing distractions in order to allow the Holy Spirit to draw us into Him.  Is it self-driven, or seeking Jesus&#8217; face?</p>
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		<title>By: Melanie Pierce</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10096</link>
		<dc:creator>Melanie Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10096</guid>
		<description>I agree with you, David, that church can be a cause of too much business and stress in our lives sometimes.  (It can also be fill me like nothing else at times.)  There&#039;s often just too much going on, and usually the same core people being called on to do it all.  We try to get others involved in serving, but so much of the time more and more just keeps getting piled on to our already full plates.

I also agree that it isn&#039;t good for the church to try to censure folks from looking into Zen, as you said it is pretty secularized here anyway.  But also, it reminds me of another large cult that I went on a missions trip to witness to (which happened to be in the state of Utah).  At an event where some of us were mingling and just trying to start up friendly, thought provoking dialog, church leaders were telling their members not to speak to us.  That kind of censorship screams insecurity.  Zen practices may not be particularly beneficial to us, but as Christians, I think we should always be free to look into other points of view and ways of doing things.  We have the truth to refer to, and if we are mature in our faith and grounded in the Word, whatever isn&#039;t compatible should raise red flags in within our spirit.

Just my two cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, David, that church can be a cause of too much business and stress in our lives sometimes.  (It can also be fill me like nothing else at times.)  There&#8217;s often just too much going on, and usually the same core people being called on to do it all.  We try to get others involved in serving, but so much of the time more and more just keeps getting piled on to our already full plates.</p>
<p>I also agree that it isn&#8217;t good for the church to try to censure folks from looking into Zen, as you said it is pretty secularized here anyway.  But also, it reminds me of another large cult that I went on a missions trip to witness to (which happened to be in the state of Utah).  At an event where some of us were mingling and just trying to start up friendly, thought provoking dialog, church leaders were telling their members not to speak to us.  That kind of censorship screams insecurity.  Zen practices may not be particularly beneficial to us, but as Christians, I think we should always be free to look into other points of view and ways of doing things.  We have the truth to refer to, and if we are mature in our faith and grounded in the Word, whatever isn&#8217;t compatible should raise red flags in within our spirit.</p>
<p>Just my two cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10095</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10095</guid>
		<description>Ps. 46:10 Be still and know that I am Lord.
Still can be defined as without sound or without motion. Sometimes we need to stop moving, stop talking, and stop listening to others and listen to God.I don&#039;t think that is Zen, but obedience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ps. 46:10 Be still and know that I am Lord.<br />
Still can be defined as without sound or without motion. Sometimes we need to stop moving, stop talking, and stop listening to others and listen to God.I don&#8217;t think that is Zen, but obedience.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/comment-page-1/#comment-10093</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingamish.com/2009/11/christian-zen/#comment-10093</guid>
		<description>Thank you Bob and Codepoke. Bob I look forward to reading your post for my daily devotions...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Bob and Codepoke. Bob I look forward to reading your post for my daily devotions&#8230;</p>
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